Theory Issues

[Mike Kaufman]

The reason I joined the network is to see what concerns and questions Kampers have regarding Music Theory.

I sure can't guarantee I have all the answers but I'm willing to bet they exist in the Kommunity.

All right. That's too many K's, even for me.

[Laura Cauble]

I have questions about "blue notes" and blues scales and blues derived doublestops. I've been trying to figure stuff out based on the assumption that a blues scale consists of the 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, and b7 of the major scale. I got this off some chart or other. BUT, that b3 often sounds bad, and it seems that a slide from b3 to 3 sounds much better, and the 7 sounds just fine as a pickup note to the 1. The only notes that seem consistently to sound bad are the 2 and the 6. Is this right or have I not experimented enough? I have noticed that there seems to be a marked difference between what works in a "bluesy" bluegrass song versus outright 8 or 12 bar blues. Also, "bluesiness" seems to conflict with some of the doublestops I have been using, and seems to give rise to other doublestops. (Such as a b7 and 5 doublestop--on mando--sounding better than a 1 and 5 doublestop.) At Kamp or here or anywhere, I would appreciate any insight regarding playing bluesy and playing blues. It seems that much of the (admittedly basic) theory I know goes out the window when I try to turn blueward. I play mandolin primarily, but I can translate guitar.
Thanks!
Laura

[Mike Kaufman]

Hi Laura -- nice to hear from you!

So this guy goes to the doctor and says, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
The Doctor looks at him and says, "so don't do this."

Soloing on this or any idiom is really a matter of personal expression, and I think tat unless you're looking to recreate someone else's solo or work entirely in the style of (insert name here), you should feel free to play what works for you..

I'm going to assume that you know the chord progression for the 12-bar blues in the key of A, and can either record your self playing rhythm for 3 minutes or have a friend who can play for you. If you don't know the progression just write back and I'll give it to you.

Once you have a rhythm track (either live or recorded), begin a lead using ONLY the notes G natural (b7) and E (5). You should see that those notes work perfectly well with the A(7) chord and even your E7 chord. When your rhythm goes to the D7, use the notes G natural and F#.

Now I know F# is not part of the Blues scale in A. If you want to be a purist you can try G natural and D.

You only want to use the pieces of the scale that work over the chord you're playing. You don't want to create a solo by simply playing that scale in an ascending and descending manner. Use the pieces that fit.

The flat 3rd step works well over the D7 chord, not so well over the A7.

I hope this is helpful as a start. If I have muddied the issue more, PLEASE write back and let me try again!

Thanks,

Mike

[Laura Cauble]

Thank you Mike! I do know the 12 bar blues progression, and I've recorded it on guitar and play along with the mandolin. It just seems that my attempts at bluesy breaks consist mostly of me trying to recover from clams. Thank you for the advice. I will start using it today.
Laura

[Pat Walker]

OK - here's one. . . . what to play over a diminished chord. Obviously you can play a diminished scale, i.e., a succession of minor 3rds. We all drill (or should drill) on those patterns. And this sounds lovely, as it should. But what if one wishes to play the "in between" notes? Of course the chromatic scale will fill in the holes, but this must be used sparingly as a seasoning. The formal guidance I have picked up (somewhere, forget the source) is to use the whole tone/half step scale, i.e., to break the minor thirds into whole steps first, then play the half step to complete the minor third. Now why does this sound so much better than playing the half step first, then completing the minor third with a whole step? BTW, I am referring to an ascending pattern. Just reverse what I said for a descending pattern.

I agree with your medical advice not to play something if it sounds bad, I was just wondering if you had a theoretical explanation for this phenomenon.

[Mike Kaufman]

Hi Pat --

This is going to take a little more time to reply than I have right now -- that pesky work stuff -- but I will try to respond with some degree of intelligence late tonight or tomorrow.

I bet, though, that there are many people reading this who have ready answers!

Best regards,

Mike

[Pat Walker]

Well - never mind Mike. I really had not tried to work this stuff out on the fretboard in some time, and my last efforts had left me with the question I posed. I figured I had better it a whirl again last night. I concluded, after much brain-twistng trying to work out alternate whole-step half-step patterns, that either way can sound good. The whole-half ascending approach is more intuitive, but the half-whole approach, while certainly more exotic-sounding, could sound great in the right context. I am sure we could come up with thoeretical explanations to account for this, and I am still interested in doing so - I just need to retract my statement the the half-whole scale doesn;t sound good. More and more I see that there are no wrong notes, there are just situaitons where they are more appropriate than others.

A simpler matter (perhaps) - at a dobro workshop I attended recently, Mike Auldridge stated that he sees there being only 3 ways to get from a V chord to a I chord, or generally to move in 4ths. These are - from an augmented chord, diminished chord, or from a regular dominant chaord. Does this comment inspire any thought?

Mike Kaufman said:

Hi Pat --

This is going to take a little more time to reply than I have right now -- that pesky work stuff -- but I will try to respond with some degree of intelligence late tonight or tomorrow.

I bet, though, that there are many people reading this who have ready answers!

Best regards,

Mike

[Mike Kaufman]

I knew if I waited long enough someone would take the bait -- I just didn't think it'd be You!!!

I'm thinking as a guitarist, not a(n incredibly talented dobro player), but my guess is that Mr. Auldridge was referring to putting the V chord in root position or inverting it -- putting the 3rd or 5th in the lowest voice. If you're moving from a G chord to a chord, and the B is in the lowest voice in the G, that B is going to resolve up to C. If the G is in the low position, it will most likely resolve up to C (root movement) while the B resolves somewhere within the chord. If the D is in the low position (not very likely because that's pretty weak sounding) you have choices.

All of these are impacted by what the bass player is doing at any given moment.

I don't think Mr. Auldrisge was referring to changing the quality of the chord from major to something else (Augmented or diminished), but I could have easily missed the point entirely. Something my ex-wife maintains I do regularly and well.

[Pat Walker]

Actually that is exactly what Mr. Auldridge was referring to. He mentioned in passing that he was using an augmented chord in an example, and I then asked him how he used the augmented chord, because to me its main function is to lead to the 3rd of the I chord from the #5 of the augmented V (which is of course the same note as the b3 of the I chord). He then shared his simple philosophy of moving in 4ths, i.e., either from a dominant, augmented, or dimished chord. He then proceeded to play examples of these movements. My practical takeaway from this was that I shoudl internalize these moves in as many positions and voicings as I can. As far as other "altered" tones of a dominant etc chord are concerned, what is left are just extensions (b9, 9, #9, sus or 11, b13, and 13). I'm not sure exactly how to approach these. I have some favorite moves I use that utilize soem of these extensions, but I do dot have a systematic understanding of how to use them.

I don't think Mr. Auldrisge was referring to changing the quality of the chord from major to something else (Augmented or diminished), but I could have easily missed the point entirely. Something my ex-wife maintains I do regularly and well.

[Mike Kaufman]

Sorry it's taken so long to respond here. It is, after all, The Most Wonderful Time of the Year.

It looks like you've got a real good understanding of this. My question in these kinds of discussions typically becomes something like: "Are you really playing an augmented chord or are you trying to explain a chromatic passing tone in terms of the chord over which you are soloing?" I can't answer that one because I have enough trouble getting into my OWN head. Analysis is helpful -- overanalysis can lead to serious doctrinal divisions in otherwise happy bands.

The other thing I would caution -- a "systematic approach" to altered choirds, while being helpful for learning and internalizing, can become too habitual if used too often in a performance setting. I guess the big word here is "too."

[Rolly Brown]

Laura Cauble said:

BUT, that b3 often sounds bad, and it seems that a slide from b3 to 3 sounds much better, and the 7 sounds just fine as a pickup note to the 1.

First off, I hope my pal Mike won't mind if I jump in here with my point of view once in a while.
Laura, you've identified one of the inherent qualities and challenges of blues theory: The "1" chord has a major 3rd, but the blues scale has a flat 3rd, and half-step intervals tend to sound dissonant. Nevertheless, it is the blues player's mandate to find ways of making this work, so don't give up on the flat 3rd. Record yourself playing over a rhythm track and listen back. You may be surprised to hear which things sound good in retrospect. More experimentation is required. If you're at Kamp for week one this year, contact me and we'll discuss it further.
cheers,
Rolly

[Rolly Brown]

Pat Walker said:

OK - here's one. . . . what to play over a diminished chord. ...The formal guidance I have picked up (somewhere, forget the source) is to use the whole tone/half step scale, i.e., to break the minor thirds into whole steps first, then play the half step to complete the minor third. Now why does this sound so much better than playing the half step first, then completing the minor third with a whole step? BTW, I am referring to an ascending pattern. Just reverse what I said for a descending pattern.

Pat,
In a sense, those passing tones in the whole tone/half tone scale function as approach notes, related to the idea of "chromatic shift", which says that any note can be approached from a fret above or a fret below. Therefore, when you're ascending, you're approaching the chord tone from a fret below. When you're descending, you're approaching it from a fret above.

Another thought: every diminished chord can be viewed as any of four dom.7b9 arpeggios (with no root note), depending on context. Let's say you're playing a sequence: F, F#dim, C:
You can treat the F#dim as an F7b9 and work with that arpeggio. I'd also suggest you look at my 4 videos on soloing on Youtube, which deal with a lot of these issues in practical terms.

[Mike Kaufman]

Rolly -- thank you thank you thank you thankyou!

Please chime in anytime -- I'm surprised you waited so long!!

Happy holidays-

Mike